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The Evolution of the Word "Khalsa".

The Evolution Of The Word “Khalsa”

By Virinder S. Grewal, Williamston, MI


The word Khalsa was brought to India by Muslim invaders, who settled in India starting in the year 636 A.D. The literal meaning of the word Khalsa is clean, pure or sacred. Mugal Emperors used this word towards the property, land, state or region on which a revenue tax is owed directly to the emperor. The local ruler had no jurisdiction over it. The word was known to Kabir (1398-1495), he was older than Guru Nanak but was his contemporary. He uses the word Khalsa in Raag Sorath:

 

ਪਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਗ ਊਪਰ ਮਾਹਿ

ਲਿਖੇ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ

ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥

 

Pari­o kal sabai jag upar mahi like baram gi­ani.
Kahu Kabir JanBhae Khalsay Prem Bhagat Jeh Jaani.

Death has fallen on the whole world; the doubting religious scholars are also listed on the Register of Death. The persons who imbibe God's love and devotion become pure.
-----
Bhagat Kabir, Raag Sorath, SGGS, Page, 655-1

Guru Hargobind, the 6th Guru, refers to the word Khalsa in His Hukamnama to the Sangat of Purab. Guru Tegh Bahadur used it in addressing the Sangat of Pattan. Thus sixth and 9th Gurus used the word Khalsa to those Sangats who did not have any parishes or Manji's. They had a direct link with the Guru as there were no Masands and sent the offerings directly to him. -----Hukamnamas by Dr. Ganda Singh

Guru Gobind Singh upon discovering that Masands were corrupt and were misappropriating the offerings and funds for their own personal benefit disbanded their Manjis. Upon the abolishment of the Manjis, all the Sangats became Guru ka Khalsa. Offerings were thereafter directly sent to the Guru through Hundies, which was the banking system at that time. Guru Gobind Singh also used the word for those individuals

1. Who renounced previous occupation, Kirit Nas (ਕਿਰਤ ਨਾਸ)?

2. Who severed the family ties, Kul Nas (ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸ)?

This did not imply severing all relationships with one’s relatives. The Khalsa had to stay detached from their affection for people and from worldly attachments.

3. Who rejected their earlier faiths, Dharma Nas (ਧਰਮ ਨਾਸ)?

4. Who having given up all rituals, Karma Nas (ਕਰਮ ਨਾਸ), became the family of Guru  Gobind and are to be known as Singhs after taking Amrita.

All this happened on the Baisakhi of 1699 at Anandpur Sahib. The five beloved ones, who wanted to sacrifice themselves, became Guru Ka Khalsa as they now belonged to the Guru. The Guru having initiated them took Amrita from them, and bowed before them. Guru was no longer their superior and had merged his entity in the Khalsa and hailed, "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh".

-----Ref History of Sikhs by K. S. Page, 85.

He replied to a question of Pundit Keshav Das about equality among Sikhs by referring to the hymns of Guru Nanak and Ramdas in Raag Sorath and Asa:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥

 

Gurmukh Ayk Darisat Kar Daykhhu Ghat Ghat Jot Samo-ee Jee-o.

As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. --- Guru Nanak, Raag Sorath, SGGS, Page, 599-2

ਸਭ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ

ਸਭੁ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥

 

Sabh Ayk Darisat Samat Kar Daykhai Sabh Aatam Raam Pachhaan Jee-o.

Sikhs look upon all with equality, and recognize the Supreme Soul, the Lord, pervading among all. -----Guru Ramdas, Raag Asa, SGGS, Page, 446-12

Guru Gobind Singh pointing to his Sikhs declared:

ਜੁਧ ਜਿਤੇ ਇਨਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਸਾਦਿ, ਇਨਹੀ

ਕੇ ਪ੍ਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਕਰੇ ॥

ਅਘ ਘ ਟਰੇ ਇਨਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਸਾਦਿ ਇਨਹੀ

ਕੀ ਕਿ੍ਪਾ ਫੁਨਿ ਧਾਮ ਭਰੇ ॥

ਇਨਹੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਸਾਦਿ ਸੁ ਬਿਦਯਾ ਲਈ

ਇਨਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਿ੍ਪਾ ਸਭ ਸੱਤ੍ ਮਰੇ ॥

ਇਨਹੀ ਕੀ ਕਿ੍ਪਾ ਕੇ ਸਜੇ ਹਮ ਹੈਂ,

ਨਹੀਂ ਮੋ ਸੇ ਗਰੀਬ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਰੇ॥੨॥

 

judhh jithae einehee kae prasaadh einehee kae prasaadh s dhaan karae ||
agh ough ttarae einehee kae prasaadh einehee kee kripaa fun dhhaam bharae ||
einehee kae prasaadh s bidhayaa lee einehee kee kripaa sabh saathr marae ||
Einehee kee kripaa kae sajae ham hai(n) nehee(n) mo so gareeb karor parae || 2 ||

It is through the actions of the Khalsa that I have been victorious, and have been able to give charities to others. It is through their help that I have overcome all sorrows and ailments and have been able to fill my house with treasures. It is through their grace that I have got education, and through their assistance I have conquered all my enemies. It is through their aid that I have attained this status; otherwise there are millions of unknown mortals like me. -----Khalsa Mahima, DG, Page, 716

ਜਾਗਿਤ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਪੈ ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸਰੁ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਆਨੈ ॥

ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਤੀਤ ਸਜੈ ਬ੍ਤ ਗੋਰ ਮੜ੍ਹੀ ਮਟ ਭੂਲ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ॥

ਤੀਰਥ ਦਾਨ ਦਯਾ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਏਕ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹਿ ਏਕ ਪਛਾਨੈ ॥

ਪੂਰਨ ਜੋਤ ਜਗੈ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਖਾਲਸ ਨਖਾਲਸ ਜਾਨੈ॥


pooran joth jagai ghatt mai thab khaalas thaahi nakhaalas jaanai ||

jaagith joth japai nis baasur eaek binaa man naik n aanai ||

pooran praem pratheeth sajai brath gor marrhee matt bhool n maanai ||

theerathh dhaan dhayaa thap sa(n)jam eaek binaa nehi eaek pashhaanai ||

He the Khalsa meditates on the Ever-radiant Light, day and night, and rejects all else but the one Lord from the mind. He decorates himself with perfect love and faith, and believed not in fasts, tombs, crematoriums and hermit cells, even by mistake. He knows none except the one Lord in the performance of acts of pilgrimage, charities, compassion, austerities and self-control. Such a man, in whose heart shines the full Divinely Radiant Light is a true a pure Khalsa. -----Sarb Loh Granth

ਆਤਮ ਰਸ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨਹੀ, ਸੋ ਹੈ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਦੇਵ ॥
ਪ੍ਭ ਮਹਿ,ਮੋ ਮਹਿ, ਤਾਸ ਮਹਿ, ਰੰਚਕ ਨਾਹਨ ਭੇਵ ॥

Atam Ras Jeh Janhi So Hai Khalsa Dev, Prabh Meh Mo Meh Taas Meh, Ranchakl Nahin Bhev.

One who knows the taste of the Lord's sublime essence, is the Khalsa (image of God), there is not even an iota of secret between God, me or him. -----Sarbh Loh Granth

He refers to the importance of Naam in Sikhism by reciting the hymns of Guru Nanak in Raag Majh and Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri Sukhmani:

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਕਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਹਛੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ॥ ਅਵਰਿ ਦਿਵਾਜੇ ਦੁਨੀ ਕੇ ਝੂਠੇ ਅਮਲ ਕਰੇਹੁ ॥

Nanak Naa-o Khudaa-ay Kaa Dil Hachhai Mukh Layho, Avar Divaajay Dunee Kay Jhoothay Amal Karayhu.

O Nanak, chant the Name of God, with heart-felt devotion. Everything else is just a pompous worldly show, and the practice of false deeds. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, SGGS, Page, 140-10 & 11

ਕਲਹਿ ਬੁਰੀ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਵਾਦੇ ਖਪੀਐ ॥

ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਕਾਰਿ ਭਰਮੇ ਪਚੀਐ ॥

ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ ॥

ਕੁਫਰ ਗੋਅ ਕੁਫਰਾਣੈ ਪਇਆ ਦਝਸੀ ॥

 Kaleh Buree Sansaar Vaaday Khapee-ai, Vin Naavai Vaykaar Bharmay Pachee-ai. Raah Dovai Ik Jaanai So-ee Sijhsee, Kufar Go-a KufraaNai Pa-i-aa Dajhsee.

The strife of this world is evil; these struggles are consuming it. Without the Lord's Name, life is worthless. Through doubt, people are being destroyed. One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated. One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn. ----- Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, SGGS, Page, 142-7 & 8

ਸਗਲ ਮਤਾਂਤ ਕੇਵਲ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ॥

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਭਗਤ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥

 Sagal MataaNt Kayval Har Naam, Gobind Bhagat Kai Man Bisraam.

The essence of any religion, doctrine or principle is the Lord's Name alone. It abides in the minds of the devotees of God. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri Sukhmani, SGGS, Page, 296-4

In Guru Gobind Singh's own writings there are passages like:

He who keeps alight the unquenchable torch of TRUTH, never swerves from the thought … has confidence in, and love for his lord … and is willing to sacrifice himself for his Lord … he who never puts his faith in fasting, the worship of Muslim graves or Saints or Hindu Sepulchers, … he who recognizes the One God and believes not in pilgrimages, nor in the destruction of any form of life, doing penances or austerities, and in whose heart shines the light of the Perfect One, is recognized as a pure member of the Khalsa. -----Ref Swaiyas Dasam Granth

The chief source of information about Guru Gobind Singh's life is his own account in Bachitar Natak. He wrote it around 1692 A.D. at the age of 26. For the remaining period of Guru's life, there is nothing older than the Sikh Chronicles, written 80-100 years after his death in 1708. Guru Bilas by Sukha Singh was written in 1797. Santokh Singh and Gian Singh's writings came much later. Rattan Singh Bhanghu wrote the Hymn recited at the Gurudwaras after Ardas "Raj Karay Ga Khalsa" 100 years later. -----Ref Panth Parkash

Guru Gobind Singh was concerned that his followers may confer divinity on him, as is clear from his statements in Bachitar Natak:

My thoughts were lost in prayer, at the feet of Almighty God. I was ordained to establish a sect and lay down its rules.

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈ ॥
ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥

Jay Hum Ko Parmeshar Oucher Hai, Tay Sabh Narak Kund Meh Par Hai.

Whosoever calls me God, will fall in to the ditch of hell. -----DG, Page, 57

Let there be no doubt, that I am the slave of Lord like other men, who are the beholders of the wonders of creation.

Sikhs should not regard SGGS as God. It contains the teachings of the Sikh Gurus and other enlightened persons. These teachings should be used as tools that make us better human beings.

Guru Gobind Singh has been very liberal in his use of the word Khalsa when referring to the Sangat and to the people who have not taken the Amrita and to those whose names do not end in Singh. The following references from the book of Hukamnamas will bring out the truth of the above statement. He wrote on March 12, 1699 before the Baisakhi of that year to the Sangat of Machiwara, that this Sangat is the Khalsa of the Guru.

On Oct 5, 1699 Guru Gobind Singh used the same words to the Sangat of Sarangdeo. It became routine for him to write or use the word Khalsa to any Sangat he addressed. He also used the word to other individuals and even devoted Muslims. He writes to Bhai Mehar Chand, Dharam Chand, and Karam Chand of Khufia Nivas, Bhai Bideraban, and Gulal Chand on Feb 6, 1702 that you are my Khalsa. Another letter of 1704 addressed to Bhai Sukhia,  Bhai Mukhia, and Bhai Parsa stated that Sarb Sangat is my Khalsa.

Mata Sundri Ji on Oct 12, 1717 wrote a letter and addressed to many people including Bhai Debi Dass, Bhai Gulab Rai. It stated that Sarbat Sangat is the Khalsa of Akal Purkh. In yet another letter of October 20, 1722, she wrote to Bhai Gul Mehar (Muslim), Bhai Kan Ji, Bhai Duni Chand, Bhai Bakshi Mal, Bhai Sahib Rai, Bhai Kaku Mal, Bhai Jagat Rai, Bhai Rup Chand, Bhai Kirpa Rai, Bhai Chatter Bhoj, Bhai Kaura Mal, Bhai Babu Rai, Bhai Chuna Mal, and Bhai Danja Rai, that you are all Guru Ka Khalsa. In a letter of June 2, 1723, she again wrote the same to Bhai Dodh Singh, Bakhtawar Singh, Hukam Singh, Babar Mal, and Prem Chand. Another letter of hers dated October 18, 1723, addressed to Bhai Chain Singh, Bhai Bhopat Singh, Bhai Alam Singh, and Bhai Mani Singh had similar content. This is also true of another one written to Gur Bakhash on August 10, 1730.

Mata Sahib Devi wrote a similar letter to Bhai Duna, Bhai Sabha, Bhai Ala, and Bhai Bhakta. Another letter of hers, dated March 19, 11730, addressed to Bhai Thaku Dass, Bhai Sahba Mal Chapia, Bhai Sinbhu Nath, and Bhai Sahib Rai carried similar content. Still another letter of April 12, 1759 from Khalsa to Khalsa stated the same.

With all the above references it is pretty clear that the word Khalsa has been used for Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs who believe in Sikh philosophy, follow the ten Gurus, and SGGS. The word Khalsa denotes spiritual character of an individual rather than physical appearance. It should not be used primarily to refer those Sikhs with beard and turbans.

Khalsa is one who remembers the Name of the Lord night and day and who gives no thought to anyone but one God. His quest to be with his Lord remains unquenchable.
Khalsa is one who has full faith and love for his God and who has no faith in worshiping anything else.

Guru Gobind Singh did not include any of his own writings in SGGS except for one dohira in the Sloks of his father at page 1429-6 & 7.

ਬਲੁ ਛੁਟਕਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਪਰੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਤ ਉਪਾਇ ॥
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਬ ਟ ਹਰਿ ਗਜ
ਜਿਉ ਹੋਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੫੩॥ ੯

 Bal Chutkeo Bandhan Paray Kachoo Na Hoat Oupaa-ey, Kaoh Nanak Ub OaT Gaj Jeo Hoh Sahaa-ey.

My strength is exhausted, and I am in bondage, I cannot do anything at all. Says Nanak, now, the Lord is my Support. He will help me, as He did the elephant.-- 9th Guru

ਬਲੁ ਹੋਆ ਬੰਧਨ ਛੁਟੇ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਤ ਉਪਾਇ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਮਰੈ ਹਾਥ
ਮੈ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਹੋਤ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੫੪॥10

 Bal Hoaa Bandhan Chutay Sabh Kich Hoat Oupaa-ey, Nanak Sabh Kich Tumrai Haath Mai Tum Hee Hoat Sahaa-ey.

My strength has been restored, and my bonds have been broken. Now, I can do everything. Nanak, everything is in Your hands. Lord, You are my Helper and Support. -----Ref- Mahan Kosh & Old Birs in the library of Punjabi University, Patiala.

Conclusion;

In my opinion, Sikhs of today are lost in a labyrinthine maze of rituals and priest-craft, and submerged in superstitions. They hold views that could neither be proved scientifically nor justified logically. They cannot even be cognized inwardly, much less realized. Their wishy- washy religion is high on hope. It promises but cannot deliver in performance or in proof. Sikhs of today try to compress life and truth into an institutionalized system, unaware that to systematize life and truth is to limit it. Their desire to organize and proselytize is stronger than their willingness to enlighten or even inform. They may not even subjectively experience for themselves, the truth of what they profess. They may not realize that only an
innate faith is capable of imparting a true power. They may not know that it is from within that such power springs.

Truth of a religion is experienced and realized when one consciously enters into the temple of his own being and begins to see the things of flesh with the eyes of spirit.

ਮਨੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਵੇਸ ਕਲੰਦਰੁ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ॥

Man manar tan ves kalanar gat hi tirath nava.

Mind is the temple, and body disguised as a mendicant; one should take the ritual bath at the sacred shrine of self. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, SGGS, Page, 795-9

[Courtesy: Gurmat Learning Zone, July 6, 2008]

Submitted by Jagpal S Tiwana, Dartmouth, Canada

Note: Please forgive any errors in Gurmukhi quoted above which may be due to font errors or mismatched fonts.
 

har kaa naam jan ka-o bhog

har kaa naam jan ka-o bhog jog. The Name of the Lord is the enjoyment and Yoga of His servants. ang 265,SGGS ni-ulee karam karai baho aasan. you may practice techniques of inner cleansing and all sorts of Yogic postures; jain maarag sanjam at saaDhan. you may adopt the self-mortifying ways of the Jains and great spiritual disciplines; nimakh nimakh kar sareer kataavai. piece by piece, you may cut your body apart; ta-o bhee ha-umai mail na jaavai. but even so, the filth of your ego shall not depart. har kay naam samsar kachh naahi. There is nothing equal to the Name of the Lord. naanak gurmukh naam japat gat paahi. ||2|| O Nanak, as Gurmukh, chant the Naam, and obtain salvation. ||2|| ang 265,SGGS

Projectnad Now you are

Projectnad Now you are playing with words by juggllery.You advocated doing Yoga in your previous posts.Now you are naming different aspects of a sikhs life as Yoga. But the point i am mentioning is that Sikhs do not perform Yoga to achieve relaization.Show me where it is written SGGS ji to do Yoga as yogis as Hindu yogis were doing.Guru ji has advised Yogis that you cann't achieve God by these methods. You also wrote tha Yogi bhajan was given a Title of singh sahib.That does no make him a Guru or a personality to be revered as a Guru.Neither Jathedar of akal takhat who gives such title is a Guru.He is a Gurbhai of sikhs.

Escapist arguments!

Attacking and/or questioning the Khalsa Rehit or Panj Kakaars of Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Ordnance is the work of those apostates who are too faithless,lazy,shy or embarassed to adorn the 5 K's of Guru Sahib.So to justify themselves and their negative policy,they manufacture such escapist , meaningless and feable arguments.

projectnaad response

1) Are you not ashamed of resorting to baseless propaganda. -> erm would I be ashamed of quoting a site created by a fellow sikh brother who has detailed the full lineage of sevapanthis from the time of Guru Gobind Singh. I am not familiar with the names you mentioned but tere is absolutely no doubt in my mind that all the sevapanthsi listed at pure hearted individuals. 2)I said when we use term khalsa in sikhism it pertains to a baptised sikh who has taken Amrit.Do not add things form your side. -> Okay Lakhwinder ji...I have made my points and you have made yours. We differ in opinion. There is no middle ground here between what I belive and what you believe. 3)Sikhism does not believe to achieve realization through Yoga. -> the basics of sikhi are seva, simren and keertan right? another word for seva = karma yoga and another word for simren = raaj yoga and another word for keertan is naad yoga. I am quite sure that these yogas are the fundamental back bone of sikhi. 4) He is not won over by music, songs or the Vedas. He is not won over by intuitive wisdom, meditation or Yoga. -> yes to understand the deeper message of the above salok. If singing didn't do anything then why do sikhs spend so long in gurdwaras doing keertan? The point of the above salok is that without rememberence of God the above can not connect you to Vaheguru. However with rememberence of God then all the above are good tools. 5) Sikhs do not awaken kundalini through yogas. kundlanee surjhee satsangat parmaanand guroo mukh machaa. The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss. -> well i already mentioned that quintesence of sikhi is karma, raaj and naad yoga. And sikhs usually do these yogas in the saadh sangat. The point here is that it is ultimately through a combination of personal effort and divine grace (gurparsad). Please we need to understand the message of Gurbani before quoting like this. 4) I Never said that do not believe in saints.I said a sikh does not take charan pahul form any saint.Nor sikh saints who follow sikhism do these types of tricks.You are trying to divert the issue by adding your own views. A sikh takes naam only form Panj piaras.That is what Rehat marayada says.Other types of pakhand is manmat. -> This is incorrect. I would recommend that if you want to learn about traditional sikh throught then you spend some time with some sampardayas. It is better for you to see the truth with your eyes. My job was to share the message wth you. If you accept it great if not then great too. BLESSINGS www.ProjectNaad.com

Project nad ji Sikhism

Project nad ji Sikhism stresses to achieve god by going within.It is inside your body.He ahs to be realized by naam simran.Why we need any saint of your type as Guru. Just as the light of the sun’s rays spread out, God permeates each and every heart, through and through Ang 1177.SGGS One who becomes Gurmukh (Spiritual Being) searches within his body; all others just wander around in confusion Ang 754,SGGS ji

Project nad 1)You are giving

Project nad 1)You are giving me some obscure site of some Hindu leanings for seva panthis.Seva Panthis have their headquarter in Goniana mandi in punjab .go and see there.Another seva panthi Pandit Nischal singh ji lived near Yamunanagar in haryana .He did a great service for sikhi.Go and see there .Was he a shaven man.Please do not take Khem Singh Bedi's name in your list of anti sikh activites.He was not repeat not a seva panthi.He did a great service for spreading sikhism in pothohar area.Are you not ashamed of resorting to baseless propaganda. 2)I said when we use term khalsa in sikhism it pertains to a baptised sikh who has taken Amrit.Do not add things form your side. 3)Sikhism does not believe to achieve realization through Yoga. He is not won over by music, songs or the Vedas. na bheejai surtee gi-aanee jog. He is not won over by intuitive wisdom, meditation or Yoga. Ang 1237 SGGs Sikhs do not awaken kundalini through yogas. kundlanee surjhee satsangat parmaanand guroo mukh machaa. The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss. Ang 1402 4) I Never said that do not believe in saints.I said a sikh does not take charan pahul form any saint.Nor sikh saints who follow sikhism do these types of tricks.You are trying to divert the issue by adding your own views. A sikh takes naam only form Panj piaras.That is what Rehat marayada says.Other types of pakhand is manmat.

one clarification

apologies maybe I didn't clarify because I thought it was obvious but a "Guru Dev" in original sikh philosophy does not sit above Guru Granth Sahib which is the eternal Guru. The Guru Dev acts like a mentor and it is through the GuruDev that sikhs within the sampardayas learn about sikhi and can cain guidance....it is like having a teacher in school. You are a child and you go to school to learn. You would need a teacher to teach you about the knowledge which you have gone to learn about e.g. maths, physics etc. So in a similar way students (sikhs) go to the various schools runs by the sampardayas to learn about sikhi and they accept a human teacher as someone who can explain the eternal philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib.... Guru Dev's dont equate themselves to Guru Nanak or the lineage of the 10 Gurus.... You need to remember that the word Guru is used in a variety of ways and not just in a specific way in which you understand it usage within sikhi. BLESSINGS www.ProjectNaad.com

projectnaad response

Lakhwinder Singh Ji, - you asked about showing proof of Sehajdhari Sevapanthis - and I showed you - you stated that Khalsa is only Amritdharis...but Guru Tegh Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh Ji used this term with a broader meaning. - you said "sikhs" do not believe in Kundalini yet this energy is the underlying basis of all the yogas in sikh dharma and is awakend through gurparsad - you stated that "believeing" in saints is against sikhi yet Bhai Gurdas Vaars and sukhani sahib gives the highest status to brahm gyanis. I respect your version of sikhi but dont be a philsophical fundamentalist and disrespect other peoples interpretation of sikh philosophy, especially the old orders who have a lineage back to the Gurus. Thanks ProjectNaad

Project naad,you re

Project naad,you re thoroughly exposed and beating about the bush .You wrote in one of posts Quote Lakhwinder....in the traditional orders did you know that they all have living Guru Dev? They have a hierarcy of gurus which starts is a) God as guru b) Guru Granth Sahib as Guru c) GuruDev as Guru (a living saint) Unquote I asked you earlier also about point C.That is against sikh teachings.Better you close your shop or disassociate it from sikhism as it is a defunct organization like Radhasoamis.Sikhism does not believe in living gurus.

just me again

sat siri akal ji, this whole thing was about how we define khalsa and all i was trying to convey was that broader meaning of the word khalsa. I never suggested that a Muslim Khalsa or a Hindu Khalsa would even want to interfere with the Khalsa Panth etc.... However I am part of the Khalsa Panth and that does give me the right to voice opinions about my dharma and its correct understanding. If I was part of the "loose khalsa" that slipped away as you say I wouldn't be here presenting email after email! haha..I have never been called Vehla before!...I am actaully very busy...just someone make time for almost everything! Bani is amazing...it is true that through breathing techniques, rituals, celibacy, fasting, even wearing 5K's can't give you peace of mind and the love of God...because it is only obtained through Gurparsad. However that doesn't mean breathing techniques have no application or usefulness in our lives, it doesn't mean going to Harmander Sahib isn't going to have an impact on our spirituality ... it just means having rememberance of God is the most important thing ... through that rememberance God grants us self realisation. www.ProjectNaad.com

Response to ProjectNaad

Khalsa can be referred in a broad way, but that 'broad khalsa' does not have any right to speak on behalf of 'panth'. Just chill and be content that you are accepted and given respect, don't try to teach the 'panth' what is right or wrong. It was the 'broad khalsa' which quietly slipped away when Guru Gobind Singh administered pahul. The Guru of Guru Nanak was bani which is God and which is now Shabd Guru of Sikhs who took khande pahul. If someone was as vehla as you, and did research , then meticulously he could show, forming a thesis from various sources, that the 'khalsa' is same as 'khalsa' of Al-a-Ud-din Khilji. And that the Jama Masjid too is inspired by kundalini yoga and Qutab Minar by shiv lingam. Leave your present job and head for US, fringe theory artists are in great demand after 9/11. By the way Gurus did not practise 'kundalini yoga' as is clear form this shabd of fifth guru ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥ किनही कीआ परविरति पसारा ॥ Kinhī kī­ā parviraṯ pasārā. Some make a big show of their worldly influence. ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥ किनही कीआ पूजा बिसथारा ॥ Kinhī kī­ā pūjā bisthārā. Some make a big show of devotional worship. ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥ किनही निवल भुइअंगम साधे ॥ Kinhī nival bẖu­i­angam sāḏẖė. Some practice inner cleansing teahniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga. ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥ मोहि दीन हरि हरि आराधे ॥१॥ Mohi ḏīn har har ārāḏẖė. ||1|| I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1|| ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥ तेरा भरोसा पिआरे ॥ Ŧėrā bẖarosā pi­ārė. I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord. ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ आन न जाना वेसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Ān na jānā vėsā. ||1|| rahā­o. I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause|| (ang 912)

ProjectNaad response

Sat Siri Akal gentlemen,  prove that the Hukamnamae the article refers to are real. Post their pictures, authoratative text and evidence they are real. Dr. Ganda Singh’s famous book “HukamNamas” has these detailed. These are accepted by Sikh Scholars as genuine. I’m assuming that if you read these then you will also be convinced that Khalsa is a much broader term than you currently believe?  Wrt The 52 Hukamnamas, they are not followed in their entirety anyway as I don’t know any sikhs who can ride a horse. The discipline outlined in the 52 Hukamnamas is for an Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh as they were the warriors. That’s why theres an instruction to learn horse riding and shastar vidya. This would not form part of Nirmala, Sevapanthi or Udasis rehat.  Wrt to charan pahul Amrit, this was given by head disciples even in the time of Gurus to people who wanted to be initiated into sikh dharma especially in areas which were far. SO it is simply the same tradition which has been coming down since the time of Guru Nanak. The issue of 1 person versus 5 people is not relevant here. This has nothing to do with someone things they are equal to the Guru Granth Sahib. In the sampardayas the guru dev-disciple relationship is still key (obviously). But I told you the hierarchy of Gurus already [a] God (atam Gur) [b] Guru Granth Sahib [c] Guru Dev (living mentor) Having a different opinion is fine...not understanding the points we are making (which is in the majority of cases) and then making up further nonsense is quite another.  I don't know...what did the Punj Pyare tell you? Last I heard, Kakkars are not to be separated from a person willingly at all. It is a Kuherait...not a Bujjar, requiring Peshi, but still something not to be done. They didn’t mention anything specifically. Even if they did it doesn’t matter to me. One of the panj also mentioned something about not accepting Raag Mala… But I don’t accept that.  I have read the belief system of project naad.I assure you AKJ can never be a member of such a group who promotes and associates with living human being as Guru. Sikhs have for a couple of centuries accepted human Gurus. So it is not to hard to conceive that the traditional sampardayas have heads who people regard with respect as mentors and teachers, keeping the hieracy I just mentioned in mind.  Sikh rehat marayada is obeyed by AKJ and also 3HO.SRM details what is system of naam japna and what is Gurmantra.That gurumantra is given by Panj piaras while we take amrit. 3ho does Amrit Sanchar ceremony in the traditional way. But unlike AKJ they do support yoga as does the philosophy of sikh dharma in general.  Are you telling us that 3HO does not believe in that?Are you a member of 3hO?Why are you keeping your identity secret.This is not a sikh way of discussing things. I am what I am. That is that.  Sikhs have problem with kundalini practice of 3HO.We do not believe in that.Sikh gurus have written in Gurbani that kundalini is to be awakened in sadh sangat and not by yogas. You will be very surprised with what I will tell you now. Firstly it is sikhs like yourself that don’t believe in the kundalini practice of 3ho. But hear me out first before you switch off. The kundalini energy rising is central to all yogas including Raaj yoga (simren), karma yoga (seva), jaapa yoga (nitnem), naad yoga (keertan in raags), bhakti yoga (keertan not in raags) etc. The line from the SGGSJ which mentioned Kundalini energy says that through bhakti the Kundalini will rise. It doesn’t say don’t do other Yogas. NOW here is the shocking bit…the entire strutcure of the Golden temple shows the Kundalini rising. It starts with the Guru Granth Sahib at the root … then there are what look like flower patterns but they are in fact symbolisig the Kundalini…and there is the ful sequence of spiritual development….we will publish the full structure in “spiritual architecture”…join the mailing list and you will know when it is published.  We consider yogi bhajan as a Gurbhai and do not accord any special status to him. Yogi Bhajan is given the title the Siri Singh Sahib by Akal Thakat so he has a distinguised position in the dharma.  This is against basic tenets of sikhi.Provide quote from Gurbani.Living saints are gurbhais and sikhs take guidance form them whenever required.They are never Gurus.Sikhism believes in shabad guru.Living person is not shabad Guru From Sukhmani Sahib “Brahm Gyani App Parmesar” The enlightened being is god himself “Brahm Gyani App Nikankar” The enlightened being is Nirankar The glory of the wash nectar of the feet of sadhus is limitless; even Stesanag (thouosand hooded mythological snake) while eulogizing the Lord by its many a mouth could not know it. The dust of sadhu's feet has erased all debts and because of that feet-wash nectar, the mind has also come under control. Vaar 23 There is no doubt that in Sikh philosophy nrahm gyanis are given the status of Sargun God himself.  ProjectNaad you are on weak grounds. Patanjali is founder of Yoga, Yoga was invented by Patanjali, Patanjali was the first Yogi. So, you say that Yogi in SGGS is not reffering to Patanjali. Same way the 'Khalsa' Kabir was referring to was not 'Khalsa' founded by Guru Gobind Singh. Khalsa of Kabir referred only to 'purity of naam'. Khalsa of Guru Gobind singh includes 'purity of naam' as one of it's many aspects. Hang on then why does Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Tegh Bahadur refer to Khalsa in a broad way too….i.e. even to Muslims who believe in Sikh philosophy?  You can use whatever logic , but you are misguided with your ill-concieved logical conclusions, they are your own. When Khalsa was founded by Guru Gobind singh, it was towards the culmination of mission of Guru Nanak, which culminated with Guru Granth getting Gurgaddi. But Guru Granth Sahib has always had a high position. Guru Arjan slept on the floor in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh just gave a final seal.  About you question : 'why did 9 out of the 10 gurus who elected the next Guru not have 5K's?' because the five K's were to be included by the 10th Guru. Applying your logic, one would say there is no need to accept SGGS as guru because 9 out of 10 Gurus did not bestow on it gurgaddi. Erm No. Guru Nanak was asked who was his Guru and he said it was Bani. Blessings

ProjectNaad=Patanjali=Kabir=Khalsa

ProjectNaad you are on weak grounds. Patanjali is founder of Yoga, Yoga was invented by Patanjali, Patanjali was the first Yogi. So, you say that Yogi in SGGS is not reffering to Patanjali. Same way the 'Khalsa' Kabir was referring to was not 'Khalsa' founded by Guru Gobind Singh. Khalsa of Kabir referred only to 'purity of naam'. Khalsa of Guru Gobind singh includes 'purity of naam' as one of it's many aspects. You can use whatever logic , but you are misguided with your ill-concieved logical conclusions, they are your own. When Khalsa was founded by Guru Gobind singh, it was towards the culmination of mission of Guru Nanak, which culminated with Guru Granth getting Gurgaddi. The original traditions of Sikhi of Guru Nanak , they can be said to be evolving traditions which attained full growth and matured completly under Guru Gobind Singh with establishment of Khalsa and gurgaddi to sggs. About you question : 'why did 9 out of the 10 gurus who elected the next Guru not have 5K's?' because the five K's were to be included by the 10th Guru. Applying your logic, one would say there is no need to accept SGGS as guru because 9 out of 10 Gurus did not bestow on it gurgaddi. Samj tainu nahi aayi aje tak, te auni vi nahi. Sākaṯ har ras sāḏ na jāṇi­ā ṯin anṯar ha­umai kandā hė. The wicked shaaktas, the faithless cynics, do not know the Taste of the Lord's Sublime Essence. The thorn of egotism is embedded deep within them. Ji­o ji­o cẖaleh cẖubẖai ḏukẖ pāvahi jamkāl saheh sir dandā hė. ||2|| The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. (guru ram das, ang 13)

Project naad wrote This is

Project naad wrote <<>> This is against basic tenets of sikhi.Provide quote from Gurbani.Living saints are gurbhais and sikhs take guidance form them whenever required.They are never Gurus.Sikhism believes in shabad guru.Living person is not shabad Guru.

Project naad I have read the

Project naad I have read the belief system of project naad.I assure you AKJ can never be a member of such a group who promotes and associates with living human being as Guru. Sikh rehat marayada is obeyed by AKJ and also 3HO.SRM details what is system of naam japna and what is Gurmantra.That gurumantra is given by Panj piaras while we take amrit. Are you telling us that 3HO does not believe in that?Are you a member of 3hO?Why are you keeping your identity secret.This is not a sikh way of discussing things. Sikhs have problem with kundalini practice of 3HO.We do not believe in that.Sikh gurus have written in Gurbani that kundalini is to be awakened in sadh sangat and not by yogas.We consider yogi bhajan as a Gurbhai and do not accord any special status to him. When i gave you the reference of kabitt of tenth master where he outlines 5 kakkars as sign of sikhi,that answers all your questions.What else is left.

Big Words

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH First and foremost, prove that the Hukamnamae the article refers to are real. Post their pictures, authoratative text and evidence they are real. Second, prove that the 52 Hukamnamae from Nanded are only applicable to Amritdhari Sikhs, as such an assertion is made nowhere in the Hukamnamae. Thirdly, the assertion was made that, "Now fo the Amrit ceremony Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not change charan Pahul to Amrit sanchar because charan pahul stil exists amongst the tradition orders of sikh dharma including udasis sikhs, sevapanthis, nirmalas etc." Show me one Sikh who is equal to the Guru if this ceremony exists. Which "Sikh" claims to be the one individual capable to dip his/her toe into water and turn it into Amrit. Are the Punj Pyare so inferior to them that it takes 5 of them to do what this one individual with his/her toe does? As per your statement, "Also the folks at the Vehaguru Network would do well to follow the following rehat too "Do not ruin someone's work by gossip."...in reference to some of the things you write about ProjectNaad on that forum." - gossip? Hardly, they actually voiced difference to your views and now you are calling it gossip. Please do voice some opinion on the Sawiya quoted from the Dasam Granth Sahib as per rehat of a Sikh. Lastly: "I take my kiran and kangha off before i go to sleep. Does that mean im not a sikh while im sleeping? what about when i go for a shower, i take off my kachera...does that mean i became patit? " I don't know...what did the Punj Pyare tell you? Last I heard, Kakkars are not to be separated from a person willingly at all. It is a Kuherait...not a Bujjar, requiring Peshi, but still something not to be done.

Patanjali

Roose I can't belive you would think that those lines talking about yoga refer to Patanjali!...to slander a Gurmukh like Patanjali is one of the worst sins you can make this is what Bhai Gurdas Vaars says about Gurmukh Ji... Gurmukh Patanjali the incarnation of the Sesnaga, very thoughtfully recited, the Naga-Shastra, Yoga Shastra (Patanjal-Yogasutras). He told in consonance with Atharvaveda that illusion cannot be erased without yoga.It is similar to the fact where we know that without cleansing of the mirror, the face cannot be seen in it.Yoga is cleansing praxis through which the surati gets absorbed into the unstruck melody. Eighteen siddhis and nine treasures fall at the feet of a gurmukh yogi. Vaar 1 Pauri 14 The Yogis which Gurbani is referring to were egoists. They went around to villages and held them to random by scaring people and saying that they will enleash black magic etc if the villagers didn't give them what they wanted. Gurbani is not slagging of yoga per se and in no way is disrespecting Gurmukh Patanjali. I can use your same logic against you... why did 9 out of the 10 gurus who elected the next Guru not have 5K's? why do the original sikh traditions not place the same importance on 5K's as the western tat khalsa? All the Gurus kept long hair because they provide an enhanced intuition and so are a gift from God. Long hair is associated with the highest qualities of the mind. But even with that knowledge someone still has the choice of whether they want to live as sehajdhari or amritdhari sikhs. For me it is a choice for you it is an obligation. Thats the difference. The Guru Granth is only the full volume. Guru Gobind SIngh ji said that parts of gurbani should be tretad like children and grandchildren etc. A human is complete with Naam. You dont need 5K's to be spiritually complete. The hair is an aid to open dasam dwar, the kara is a reminder of good actions+shastar, kangha is a comb to keep the hair in order, kachera is for your modesty and kiroan is to protect others (it is a seva tool)....thats all they are. Nothing magical. I take my kiran and kangha off before i go to sleep. Does that mean im not a sikh while im sleeping? what about when i go for a shower, i take off my kachera...does that mean i became patit? How about when i travel to India and put my kirpan in my luggage ...does that make me non-sikh while im travelling?... answer is a NO ... im sikh whether i have or whether i dont have 5K's. 9 out of 10 Gurus and all the sikhs up to the 10th guru didn't have 5K's...but they were sikhs...sumaj aiii? blessings www.ProjectNaad.com

ProjectNaad response

Lakhwinder....in the traditional orders did you know that they all have living Guru Dev? They have a hierarcy of gurus which starts is a) God as guru b) Guru Granth Sahib as Guru c) GuruDev as Guru (a living saint) Living saints are given the highest status in sikh philosphy...brahm gyani app parmesar. All the major sikh groups such as AKJ, 3HO have all had living brahm gyanis who people have been attracted to. Sikh dharma could have been classed as a "cult" 500 years ago by both Muslims and Hindus. SO maybe you should be more respectful when addressing other peoples spiritual traditions. We have already talked about the definition of sikh and khalsa and we disagree. There is no question that Kabir ji came before Guru Nanak. No one is denying this. How am I backing out of this? It doesn't mean that I think sikh philisosopy has only existed since 500 years. Sikh dharma is Ad such jugad such, hai bai such, nanak hose bi sach. i.e. the philosophy has existed since the beginning of time. Gurmukhs have also existed since the dawn of time. Yes sir with regards to sevapanthis with short hair please see the folowing link which highlights the 3 lineages of sikh sevapanthis. There really is no debate about this issue in original sikhi. http://www.sewapanthi.org/htmls/sewapanthi_how_roop.html You have answered NONE of my questions. I gave you a simple list of questions and I asked you to show me how the letters of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and his wife referring to Khalsa were fake or taken out of context. You quoted some rehatnamas from the close associates of Guru Ji but Guru Ji's own letters you dismiss! 5K's are for Amrirdhari sikhs...i already mentioned a million times. www.ProjectNaad.com

A few words on mr. patanjali (who was YOGI and founder of YOGA )

ਮੈਲੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਜਟਾ ਸਹੇਤਿ ॥ Mailė jogī jangam jatā sahėṯ. The Yogis and wandering hermits with their matted hair are polluted. (ang 1158) ਜਟਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਮੂਏ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਤਿ ਇਨਹਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ Jatā ḏẖār ḏẖār jogī mū­ė ṯėrī gaṯ ineh na pā­ī. ||2|| The Yogis die, with their matted hair, but even they do not find Your state, Lord. (ang 654) Also please answer this simple questions 1. Why the Khalsa who gave pahul to Guru Gobind Singh in 1699, was the Khalsa which had all the five K's. 2. Why the Khalsa which gave the order to Guru Gobind Singh to leave from Chamkaur was the Khalsa which observed the five K's 3. Why the Khalsa which imposed fine of rs.125 on Guru Gobind Singh when he touched his arrow at the samadhi of some pir, was the Khalsa which had five K's. 4. Why the verse of bhagat Kabir is incompletely quoted, the full meaning is that whether you have hair or not you will not get salvation without naam and purity of deed and thought. 5. Why all Guruji kept hair. 6. Does this mean that one could treat only japji sahib or sukhmani sahib as our guru, as it is wrtten by Guru Nanak or Guru Arjan. No way, even if it is bani and reffered to as bani. It is incomplete without whole of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Same way all the sangat can be Khalsa, but they are incomplete without five K's.

Guru did not say that follow

Guru did not say that follow a living human Guru.Cults listed by you namdharis and radhasoamis follow living Guru.Guru has decided already and given the definition of a sikh. You yourself agreed that kabir was on scene before Guru nanak dev ji and that is a fact.Now you backing out of your own statement?You want me to show that to you.Bhagats including kabir ji and baba farid whose bani is in SGGS were not sikhs. Can you show me a nirmala sikh and sevapanthi who have not keshas. What are your questions left?I think all have been answered.Verinder is being dealt about gurmat on other sites where he posted this agnostic article. Please do your home work properly before writing so authoritatively here.Hybrid sikhism being promited by project naad were born earlier many times and dies its natural death.Anything that is devoid of truth dies out. I have quoted the writing of Guru Gobind singh ji itself where he writes that there are five signs of sikhi and lists those kakkars one by one.What else you want.

projectnaad response

Sat Siri Akal brother, Keep it cool brother....It doesn't help to get emotional and start accusing people of being or not being Gursikhs. Guru ji decides who is a Gursikh not you or me. ProjectNaad is here to spread original sikh philosophy and if that is difficult or too open minded for some people then its too bad...because we aint going anywhere! Thank you for providing those other reatnamas...I will look through each proof those and meditate on their meaning and applications. with regards to sevapanthis I have never denied that there are Amritdhari sevapanthis, nirmalas. However, there are also sehajdhari nirmalas and sevapanthis too. It is recognising that both are just as good as each other....one is not superior to another because one has taken amrit. The Khanda Amrit and the Rehat when followed properly gives you a GUARANTEE that your actions will have the desired result. It is a Guarantee from Guru Gobind Singh Ji but it is not manadatory to take the guarantee .. it is there for people who want it. Regarding Kabir ji...how could he have known sikh philosophy so well if he wasn't a sikh and if he was before Guru Nanak? Also you very smartly avoided ALL the questions I asked. Virinder didn't make up his opinion. He based it on the writings of Guru Gobind Singh and Sikh Philosophy as contained in Guru Granth Sahib. To say that we are supporting his lies is to ignore the fact that he used historical proofs for his conclusion. We need to remember that when doing research we can't know the end result ...but we must base the end result on the evidence. The questions are still open for you and your colleagues. www.ProjectNaad.com

Project nad quotes about

Project nad quotes about nirmalas and sevapanthis not being amritdhari.Another big lie. Who was Sant attar singh ji mastuana wale.A nirmala sikh.Was he not baptized.of course he was and he baptised thousands and thousands others.There were countless nirmala sikhs who were amritdharis and wrote sikh literature. Project nad says sevapanthi are not Amritdharis.Another lie.Please go to Goniana mandi near malout and see yourself. Project nad writes kabir was a khalsa.Ramanad was guru of kabir.How can kabir a sikh when he was born before Guru nanak dev ji.How can a man who denigrates women be a sikh?How can he obtain heights of spiritualism if he has hatred for certain section of humanity. Kabir was a Bhagat and his bani is attached in Bhagat bani.Why do you take interest in sikhs when you do not follow sikhism in letter and spirit.Form your own sect like Radhasoami,namdhari dEra sacha sauda etc etc.it may be profitable business.You also need to know that the sects you are listing as sikhs believe in living human as Guru.

You are gravely mistaken if

You are gravely mistaken if you call it tat khalsa philosophy.It si sikh philosophy.That is what guru Gobidn singh ji wrote ' ik ongkaar sri waheguru ji ki fateh, sri mukhvaak P:10 nishaani sikhi punj haraf ast kaaf, har giz na baashade azii punz muwaaf|| kara kaar do kach khanghae bidhaa, bila kesh haech ast jumale nishaan|| haraf hai kaat ast azii punz kaaf, bidha nund bavar na goyam khilaaf|| HUKA HAJAAMAT HALLO HARAM, bariishe hina karad roo siya faam|| sri dasam granth asforkat sawayae....'' Dasam granth Then kavi sainapat writes in Gur shobha Hookah na pive Kes Darhi na mundave (Khalsa is not to smoke Hookah and neither He is to shave hair and beard) So to waheguru waheguru Guru Ji Ka Khalsa verse 146 (He alone is the khalsa of whaeguru and Guru ji) Guru shobha by Kavi sainapat Read rehatnamas by Bhai nand lal,Chaupa singh and desa singh. Read guru kian sakhian Read parchain seva das ji, an Udasi writer. Please do not give me a bundle of lies like Verinder.Were these sikhs born in British era.Do you know when tat khalsa was born?Read sikh history before writing trash here. SGGS will not tell you what one should eat and wear.It will also not tell you mwhich tooth paste you use.It is a message to soul. But sikhism is an organized religion.It has its own discipline ,protocols and traditions.Temporal philosophy evolved into miri and piri and then sealed by Guru Gobind singh ji when he created khalsa.There are no otehr sikhs but all sikhs have to be khalsa one day. Please do not tell us that radhasoami sikhs.Namdhari sikhs .They are not sikhs.You coin your own definition of a sikh but if you do not follow Rehat maryada you are not a sikh.

Gentlemen, many thanks for

Gentlemen, many thanks for your wonderful feedback. I understand the points of view both of you are making. However as of yet I have not seen any proper rebuttal to either Virinder's scholarly article (apart from comments regarding his background which are irrelevant) or either the points I have made. Allow me to summarise in question format below after I have addressed some of your other queries 1) "Without keshas a person is not called a sikh.Guru Gobind singh gave the final shape to sikhs." - the sikh philosphy that support the above statment is called tat khalsa. It was created in the British time. The Original sikh philosophy which does not support the above and is supported by the following items is the same philosophy that came from Guru Gobind Singh because there is a direct lineage that goes back t the Gurus. That philosophy is supported by: - SGGS, Page, 655-1 (definition of a khalsa) - SGGS, Page, 599-2 (definition of a gurmukh) - Khalsa Mahima, DG, Page, 716 - SGGS, Page, 296-4 (essence of religion) - Hukamnamas by Guru Gobind Singh written on March 12, 1699 (BEFORE creation of Khalsa) - letter by Guru Gobind Singh to sikhs and non sikhs (Bhai Mehar Chand, Dharam Chand, and Karam Chand of Khufia Nivas, Bhai Bideraban, and Gulal Chand) on Feb 6, 1702 addressing everyone as Khalsa - Letter by Mata Sundri Ji on Oct 12, 1717 wrote a letter and addressed to many people including Bhai Debi - Dass, Bhai Gulab Rai. It stated that Sarbat Sangat is the Khalsa of Akal Purkh - ALL the other Letter detailed above which are written by the wives of Guru Gobind Singh and which detil the word Khalsa. - oral tradition of Nirmalas, Udasis, Nihangs and SevaPanthis NOW either of you or someone else can PROVE that the above documents are ALL fake and that it was not Guru Ji or his wive that wrote any of those letter addressing even Muslims and Hindus as Khalsa then you MUST accept that your definition of Khalsa is not true to its original use. As far as we are concerned when it comes to any piece of work whether written by a scholar or not it needs to stand up on its own with evidence. This piece does. It would follow then that a Muslim Khalsa has his own rehat which includes trimming the moustache and cutting the hair on the head. -> There were never two types of sikhs.Sikhism evolved from ist to tenth Guru ji.Without keshas a person is not called a sikh.Guru Gobind singh gave the final shape to sikhs. This is almost like saying that those before Guru Gobind Singh were not sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created a number of different groups including Nirmalas and Sevapanthis....these groups didn't just disintegrate. -> Where in SGGS says that keshas are not a requirement for a sikh.Mind it Kabir was not a sikh and he condemned women unlike sikh gurus.What type of sikh preaching you will do when you do not know historical details of sikhism. I already gave the reference to this. Please see my earlier post. It is a salok from Kabir. I know that kabir had bani not included in SGGSJ so please dont make assumtpions about what i know/dont know. He is still a sikh seeing as he was blessed with the power to compile GURBANI. What kind of a statment is it to suggest that someone who wrote Gurbani is not a sikh and someone who cant like me or you is a sikh? Who is at a higher level of spiritual awakening? you or Kabir? -> Are you rtelling us before SGGS came on the scene there was no God realization by ?Of course there wasikhss. Thank you. Thats exactly my point. Meaning that they were complete sikhs with Naam. -> Lakwinder is correct. Guru Gobind Singh Ji have the final shape to Sikhi in the form of Khalsa, by way of Khande Bateh da Amrit. The Khanda Bateyda Amrit had a purpose which was to give people strength to fight injustice. This is just another stream in sikhi like the same way Guru Gobind Singh created Nirmalas and Sevapanthis. Difference being that Khanda Amrit was designed for a wider audience. We can agree to disagree. -> Projectnaad, Im going to assume you're punjabi and try to explain this a little differently. You are quoting Guru Granth Sahib Ji and trying to use it to validate your points, as Lakwinder pointed out, so does Kala Afghana and crew. To fully understand even one shabad in gurbani you need to understand the shabad before it and after it. You need to understand when it was given / written., to fully grasp the meanings of it. I Completely AGREE with this statement. But Please show me how t is relevant to the above letters and the other evidence which was quoted above For you to support your version of the word Khalsa i.e. referring to only Amritdhari sikhs you need to show: 1) letter by Guru Gobind singh ji before khalsa ceremny refering to his khalsa is a fake 2) letters by Guru Gobind Singh post Vaisakhi and by his wife are fake or mean something else? 3) You need to explain why Patanjali is called A Gurmukh in Bhai Gurdas Vaars 4) You need to explain why all the original Sampardayas also beleive that Kesh is not a requiement to be a sikh which have a lineage back to the Gurus 5) You need to explain why in Mahimas of Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Ji did not mention Kesh but instead focused on the qualities of Kesh 6) You need to explain why if Kesh is so important that Guru Granth Sahib teaches that whether someone has long hair or whether someone is bald the true ones remember God. If you can do this for starters then we can continue this conversation...because then we are all using the same tools to understand sikh philosophy i.e. intelligence, historical proof and logical reasoning BLESSINGS www.ProjectNaad.com

Two types of Sikhs

Lakwinder is correct. Guru Gobind Singh Ji have the final shape to Sikhi in the form of Khalsa, by way of Khande Bateh da Amrit. Projectnaad, Im going to assume you're punjabi and try to explain this a little differently. You are quoting Guru Granth Sahib Ji and trying to use it to validate your points, as Lakwinder pointed out, so does Kala Afghana and crew. To fully understand even one shabad in gurbani you need to understand the shabad before it and after it. You need to understand when it was given / written., to fully grasp the meanings of it. Plus you need to read it correctly and chronics play a large part of this. Four Words in punjabi Ruko na ageh jao. --- literal translation -- "STOP", "NO or DON'T", "FORWARD or FRONT", and "GO" If you pause after the first word, it translates to STOP, Don't go forward. If you pause after the second word, it translates to Don't Stop, go forward. Something simply and a little silly, but I hope it illustrates the importance of fully comprehending Gurbani before quoting a shabad to support a point.

(No subject)

Project naad wrote There is no doubt in my mind that Kesh is not a requirement to be spiritual. But for a Sikh who has taken Khanda Amrit they are a requirement. But also to say that Kesh is a requirment for every Sikh, keeping the broad application of Original Sikh Philosophy in mind it does follow that a Sikh doesn't have to keep long hair. This is also supported by the Guru Granth Sahib! My response There were never two types of sikhs.Sikhism evolved from ist to tenth Guru ji.Without keshas a person is not called a sikh.Guru Gobind singh gave the final shape to sikhs. Where in SGGS says that keshas are not a requirement for a sikh.Mind it Kabir was not a sikh and he condemned women unlike sikh gurus.What type of sikh preaching you will do when you do not know historical details of sikhism. Are you rtelling us before SGGS came on the scene there was no God realization by sikhs?Of course there was.

Project naad ji I do not

Project naad ji I do not disagree with you that we should respect people of all religions.But when we talk kahlsa in sikhism it is to denote a sikh who ahs taken baptism of tenth master.There is no second opinion on it. The likes of the author of this article consider themselves intellectual sikhs who want sikhism to conform to their their wishes.They think hair is a sign of backwardness for sikhs.They think that Gurudwara is a picnic spot where bars should be permitted.Most of them are followers of kala afghana scet whereby they condemn bani and bana. They are vfull of ego.So before you jump on such people bandwagon you need to know them anf their background. Do you know that Bhagat kabir's bani has not been taken in totality in SGGS as that was not conforming to Sikh philosophy.Only that bani has been included that is ion conformity guru's thoghts.Kabir condemned women.He was not a sikh even .He has another granth called beejak granth.I am at a loss to understand how he is called a khalsa. We talk about khalsa like Bhai taru singh ji and countless who gave their lives for defending keshas.How can a person who advocates trimming of hair is competent on writing about khalsa. It is not criticism but you need to do some research.Every Tom ,Dick and harry does not become khalsa.Raed Bahi dall's sakhi who was a sikh of guru Gobind singh ji.

Philosophical fundmentalism

i thought i would share the levels of philosophical fundamentalism that have crept into the commuity. These days there are people who look like Amritdhari Sikhs with the bana of Guru Gobind Singh Ji BUT they do not have the same spirit and the same vibration as Guru Ji.... take for example the following groups of people ... if you dont agree with their point of view you are disrespecting sikh dharma and you are also automatically disqualified from calling yourself a sikh... this is NOT sikh dharma http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=38182&st=0#entry356904 http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?showtopic=24874

a bit more about ProjectNaad

Lakwinder Singh Ji, Many Blessings to you. The core people managing ProjectNaad are not alligned to any specific sikh group as such, but the contributers of articles on PN include people who come from AKJ, Nirmala, 3ho, Udasis and rationalist sikh traditions to name a few. PN was started in 2007 and since we have started we have found people who love our resource and people such as those that can be found on networks like waheguru network who really dont like our work. We dont mind either way as our mission at ProjectNaad is to create impact and change in the consciousness of people. ProjectNaad is also about creating a space where all traditions within our dharma are respected and that includes the traditional orders like udasis, nirmals, nihang, sevapanthis and taksalis and the newer orders/groups in sikh dharma like radha swamis, AKJ, 3ho, Namdharis etc. We are trying to build bridges of understanding between our selves so that as a diverse body of sikh traditions we can stand together and create real positive transformation in the world. The Khalsa is of course a physical entity. The author of the original article does not deny this. The point of difference is that we also beleive that a physical Khalsa is made by the chacater and not be the outer appearence. We beleive that a Khalsa is an Amritdhari Sikh but that it can also be a Muslim, a Christian a Buddhist a Hindu or anyone else who loves God and has a pure heart. So being a Khalsa for us refers to the purity of the heart of a physical person rather than something external. This is what is defined in Guru Granth sahib and we belive in Guru Granth Sahib so we take that definition. You and I both know that the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib are simple and powerful at their core. 80% of the message of the Guru Granth Sahib is Nam Japo Nam Japo Nam Japo. Before the 5K rehat of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, all the praticing sikhs who came and went were Gurmukhs/sikhs/khalsa. All the sikhs who came and went in the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji were sikhs. They were still Khalsa too even before the Guru Granth Sahib had been compiled. The point I a making brother Ji is that Khalsa = Purity of Heart and it has. always been understood in this light. The letters of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji addressing Muslims as Khalsa is testinony to this too. If we can't accept Guru Ji calling a Muslim a Khalsa then I dont know what other proof could be presented to prove this point. Original Sikh Philosophy has always recoginised the fact that someone can follow any religion and still be a sikh. This took me a long time to understand too and I had to do plenty of research and soul searching but I realised that this is one of the MOST AMAZING philosophies on Earth....i.e. that sikh dharma trancends the dimension of religion in this manner. If you ask any of the Original orders within sikh dharma they will tell you the same thing. wishing you soul searching and blessings on your path projectnaad www.ProjectNaad.com

Project naad

Project naad So you acknowledge that khalsa is a physical entity.The writer of that article says that khalsa are the qualities of a human being and need not to get baptism as it is inclusive of Hindus and Muslims.In other words he says rehit is not a must for a khlasa.Do you agree? I know Guru granth sahib is guru eternal.But above all a sikh has to live the teachings of guru Granth j and also rehat ordained by tenth master..That is to do simran and experience shabad guru instead of talking vague.Once a sikh does that he will not talk low things as a sikh need not to have keshas and rehat ordained by Guru sahib.Let us not divert he topic to other things.The discussion was on the article wherein author says that a sikh need to have bana.That is what central in that article.Sikhs have given their lives to protect bana.For us as Indian sikhs that is very very important as otherwise it is death for us.We have lived through history and know how central is rehat for a sikh.Do not go to often discussed topic of bani of SGGS to justify your first post..We all know that it is important. What is your opinion about the inaccuracies in that article.For example a composition is mentioned from Sarbloh Granth whereas it is not."Raj karega khalsa" is mentioned to be kirat of Rattan singh Bhangu wheras it is not. Can you tell more about your organization such as when it started and what are its objectives?Who are the people managing it?

Guru Granth and Guru Panth

Yes Lakhwinder Singh Ji....we indeed have a dual Guru...Guru Granth Sahib is the spiritual and the Khalsa (sikh collective) are the physical presence of the Guru. But where does the Khalsa obtain its guidance? What is the reference point for the Khalsa? It should be the Guru Granth Sahib and so the Guru Granth Sahib does sit even above the Khalsa Panth in this respect. When Guru Arjan Dev Ji compiled the Guru Granth Sahib Guru Ji himself slept on the floor. Keep that in mind. Also lets not forget where this conversation started...its all about how we defie a Khalsa and a Sikh...Guru's philosophy is open minded but people have a habit of making mess out of something beautiful. Our definition of Khalsa is one of them. In Guru Gobind SIngh's own words... He who keeps alight the unquenchable torch of TRUTH, never swerves from the thought … has confidence in, and love for his lord … and is willing to sacrifice himself for his Lord … he who never puts his faith in fasting, the worship of Muslim graves or Saints or Hindu Sepulchers, … he who recognizes the One God and believes not in pilgrimages, nor in the destruction of any form of life, doing penances or austerities, and in whose heart shines the light of the Perfect One, is recognized as a pure member of the Khalsa. Blessings www.ProjectNaad.com

Project naad Sikhs have two

Project naad Sikhs have two Gurus.SGGS ji is guru of sikhs for spiritual purpose.Guru panth i.e. khalsa panth is Guru of sikhs for temporal affairs.Let us keep these two things in proper place and not mix them. Our gurus had organized our religion.That is why guru panth.Guur Gobind singh ji said that when five khalsa assemble they will see his roop in them.That is why panj piaras.Get facts about sikhi before making comments on their affairs.

Lakwinder Singh: - yes

ProjectNaad is a grass roots movemnet of Sikhs from all backgrounds aimed at exploring Sikh spirituality, Sikh philosophy, personal development tools and world religion. we are al